FAQ = Frequently Asked Questions
Over the years we've answered many of the same questions over and
over, and received numerous death threats for the exact same offenses,
so before you blow a gasket, count to ten and read.
Rankings & Markings
How are the bull rankings done?
The bull rankings are based on the adjusted average marking for
each bull over the course of his entire career that we know of.
In most cases, a bull will have been looked at and marked by a variety
of judges. A bull cannot get into the ranked group unless he has
been marked by judges on at least 5 different outs. You'll notice
that some bulls have many more outs than that. Each out represents
an opinion by two or four judges depending on the venue. The "ranked
group" is every bull in our database at any given time with
5+ marked outs. Rankings are updated almost daily.
What do you mean by average marking?
For each typical out, a bull receives TWO markings from the judges.
If there were 4 judges involved in the scoring, for example, and
they were all using half points, we store this as two markings using
quarter points - which is mathematically the same. Most times there
are two judges and most events use half points. Some events use
only whole points, but typically the judges will still mark bulls
with half points on buckoffs, so we record that as it happens. For
each out a bull has that resulted in some sort of marking by the
judges, he would have two markings in our database. To arrive at
the average marking for a bull, we COUNT how many outs in which
the bull was marked, and then SUM the markings, DIVIDE that by the
COUNT and DIVIDE the result by 2. We end up with a figure between
0 and 25 points for each bull. The PBR's rating system doesn't usually
take the last step of dividing by two, so their rating or bull score
is based on a 0-50 scale. You can simply multiply the Probullstats
average marking by two to arrive at that figure.
What is Adjusted Average Marking?
Every bull that has 5 or more marked outs in Probullstats has his
average marking stored in the Probullstats database. We also adjust
his average marking based on where the bull has been.
There are a lot of good bulls around, they go to different venues,
and they are seen differently by a variety of judges in different
contexts. In order to compare bulls across this diverse array of
situations in which they might be judged, where possible we adjust
their score to project what that bull may be worth at the highest
level of bull riding - the PBR Built Ford Tough Series.
The two situations where there is a quantifiable difference in
judging tendencies are bulls that go to PBR touring pro events,
and bulls that go to CBR events. At present, bulls at PBR TPD events
tend to be marked 0.673 points higher (in a 1-50
point scale) than they would be marked at BFTS events. This is based
on every bull that has ever been to both levels, and the adjustment
figure changes every time relevant records are added. Bulls at CBR
events are marked 1.463 points higher (in a 1-50
point scale) at present - also based on every bull that has ever
been to both CBR events and PBR BFTS level events. If judging tendencies
in the TP and the CBR change, the adjustment changes as well.
At both CBR and PBR TP events, judging is fairly consistent and
reliable. It is also measurably different in terms of what those
bulls would be marked at the PBR BFTS level. PRCA judging is also
different, but the difference is not measurable for several reasons,
mainly inconsistent judging overall. In the PRCA a great bull is
liable to get loaded at times, and overlooked at others. This seems
to work out to the bull's disadvantage more often than not, but
it is not quantifiable.
Bulls are ranked on the basis of their adjusted average marking
in two important areas - the top
500 active bulls, and the top
500 overall bulls in Probullstats. Both these lists rank bulls
across different sanctioning organizations, where the adjustments
4 CBR outs, 10 TPD outs, 2 PRCA outs and 4 BFTS outs. This bull's
average marking would be adjusted for his CBR and TPD outs. He would
either gain or lose based on the adjustment values at the time.
At present he would lose 0.146 off his average
for his CBR outs and 0.168 for his TPD outs.
If the judging tendencies change to the point where the above adjustments
are negative numbers, then the bull would gain in average marking.
The adjustments are strictly based on what the values are today.
What about plus marks?
Sometimes judges will mark a bull something like 21+ or 20.5+.
We just ignore this. When Probullstats first started, we used to
record plus marks as half points - mainly because the PRCA doesn't
use half points, but now most judges will mark half points rather
than plus marks - or use both. The PBR judges use plus marks sometimes,
and if I were to interpret them as extra points, I would be down
to using 1/8 points - since the PBR judging system can already result
in quarter points awarded. So in the interest of being consistent, plus
marks are meaningless here.
Are the markings/rankings accurate? or... Is the highest
ranked bull the rankest bull?
They are not perfect. But the bull with the highest average
marking is absolutely the highest MARKED bull. So the rankings show
exactly which bulls the judges like best. If you are one of these
people who believe that all the judges are imbeciles, or that some
of the judges are imbeciles, then you should not expect our rankings
to be absolutely accurate. NEW bulls coming into the ranked group
with only a few outs tend to rank incorrectly. Some come in way
high, and some low. Over time they will settle into a groove and
fluctuate less. If you look at the rankings by year, though, each
year the highest ranked bulls here have won the various year end
awards, so in general, the rankings are pretty telling.
There's also a natural fluctuation in exactly how high a bull is
marked at one event or another or by one particular judge or another.
A common misconception is that they mark higher at PBR events or
they mark higher at PRCA events or whatever. It's not entirely true.
It really has more to do with where the judges start out on their
markings for a given event. If they start high, they are going to
stay high the whole event to stay fair. There is some statistical
evidence to suggest that bulls get marked somewhat higher in a final
round or "short go" - but not by as much as you would
think. Most of the extreme high or low marks come from the PRCA
- particularly on the high side. At most of the stand alone bull
riding events, they use 4 judges or half points or both, which tends
to compress the markings into a narrower range away from either
end of the spectrum.
Judges tend to see bulls differently too. Some judges tend to mark
certain types of bulls slightly higher or lower than others based
on their pattern or whatever. You may not think this SHOULD happen,
but it does. Sometimes Big Eliminator types get a lot of point love
from some judges, and sometimes they get docked. It happens.
Based on the sheets alone, I can tell you that there is some flaky
judging going on here and there. When a bull is marked something
like 23-18 it doesn't necessarily mean that he was really a 20.5
point bull. It's actually impossible to tell what he was, really,
but you can say that it's pretty likely that one of those judges
(or both) was off. There have been events where one side marked
everything near about the same and the other side saw more variation.
Which side was right? It's hard to say. Judging is not a piece of
cake, so you shouldn't expect it to be idiot-proof.
Overall, the standard deviation in bull scores usually runs about
half of the standard deviation in overall ride scores, so that suggests
that the bull accounts for half of what makes one ride score more
than another. That is exactly the way it should be according to
the rule books.
What About Judging?
I've probably looked at more judges sheets than anyone alive, and
my opinion is that there IS bad judging out there, but it is not
widespread, and it is not the result of any conspiracy (unless it's
weirder than I can imagine). I hesitate to call it bad even, since
I can't usually see the event independently. I can't tell whether
it was bad or not. There are obvious cases where the markings are
so different that one of them must have been hallucinating. So what
I tend to notice is flaky judging - the two judges are far apart,
or one of them thinks every other bull is a 24. Times are way off
from each other, etc... Flaky judging occurs more often with guys
who don't judge much. No matter how qualified they are, if they
haven't judged in a while, they will be a bit flaky for one event.
One could make a case for flaky judging from guys who judge too
much, as in... burnout. There are some judges who seem not to care
much - maybe there just to get a paycheck.
In general, good judging is consistent judging, and will usually
be pretty consistent across events even. Take a bull that is marked
21.5 somewhere else, and let him have the same trip, and maybe a
flaky judge will mark him 23.5 - while consistent judging will have
him closer to the same both places. As a rule, the PBR's BFTS level
has the most consistent judging, and BFTS events are difficult to
judge. They tend to have guys that are competent, know what they
are looking at, judge often enough so that they stay in practice...
and usually not flaky. When flaky judging does occur in the PBR,
it's usually at the low level events, and involves someone who IS
qualified but hasn't judged much, or hasn't judged much lately.
More of the spread is used at PBR events as well, although the upper
extremes of the spread are used less. Elsewhere it's hit or miss
as to whether you will get a flaky one or more likely, an apathetic
Some examples of flaky judging that I've seen include but are not
- A guy who no doubt knows bulls but doesn't judge much marks
about 85% of the bulls at a major event 21.5 points, while his
counterpart is all over the spread. Almost like... not judging.
- One guy tends to seriously dock bulls that don't spin, and seriously
overvalues bulls that do.
- Many isolated cases of guys obviously lowering or raising markings
slightly depending on how long they got to see the bull.
- The strange case of 4 very competent judges who thought Just
A Dream belonged in a tie for 29th best bull in the round when
he chili whopped Cody Whitney in Charleston
'06. Actually I'm just kidding - that one is a matter of opinion,
and my opinion of him was higher than that. Fortunately, those
guys are judging instead of me. But I'd guess Whitney could think
of a hundred 21.125 point bulls he'd rather get on again than
that particular one.
On the subject of using 4-6 or more judges: In my opinion having
quality judges is more important than having more judges. More judges
increase the probability of having less competent ones, and mixing
in less competent ones increases the chances of getting something
If there is any favoritism going on, it is almost certainly at
a subconcious level.
What is an Eliminator?
There's no use trying to explain this one. It means something different
to everyone, and therefore it's so ambigous that it spawns confusion
everywhere it's used. If you hear it come out of my mouth, I mean
a bull that has a serious lack of rhythym or some other gimmick
that makes him difficult to ride. Lack of rhythym is the big factor.
I think there are eliminators that really buck, and more of them
that DON'T. A bull that covers 30 feet in two lunges and then turns
back on a dime without much kick might seem like an eliminator to
me.. or one who jumps six feet high and goes belly up every other
jump - never settles into a groove. Other people have their own
ideas. My opinion is only my opinion and I am not one of the main
SOBs (Swamis of Bullriding).
I use something I call Power
Rating to differentiate between high marked bulls that don't
seem to be capable of throwing guys off, and high marked bulls that
DO seem to be difficult to ride.
What do the judges sheet comments mean?
Why do you have this bull listed
as belonging to X when he really belongs to Y?
Because it's impossible to tell who owns what exactly from the
judges sheets. Some bulls show up under a different owner at almost
every event. People change names and brands. It's a pain in the
butt to keep up with. Whatever I show is based on whatever the latest
evidence suggested. Many people email or drop a note to straighten
me out on ownership issues, and it's very helpful, so feel free
to do so. Don't be offended if I don't believe it or act immediately
- I take everything with a grain of salt.
As a rule, I will list bulls under the contractor and not a partner
or partnership. Partners will show up on the bull's profile... example:
THIS BULL is listed
under contractor BGR (Dakota Rodeo) with a partner - Struve (Clay
Struve) A partner's name won't show up on the bull's profile until
the bull has at least 5 marked outs. It's common for me not to know
who all the partners are, or who is the owner and who is the partner,
because people rarely if ever consult with me before forming partnerships.
If the sheets say a bull belongs to X, and I don't have a clue
who X is or where they are from etc... usually I will put the bull
in as UNknown (UN) and show X as a partner. If I ever find out anything
about X, then I may end up adding them as a contractor at a later
date. Many times people email me to tell me they are the owner of
bull X, but fail to tell me who exactly they are or where they are
from. Some of these people seem angry, but what is there to do?
Tell me who you are.
My main concern is always to keep each bull's records together
no matter who owns him, whether he gets sold from one to another,
or whatever. Having the ownership listed properly is not always
top priority here. As a courtesy, I do try to keep the ownership
correct so far as it can be based on the evidence I have. I am not
notified every time a bucking bull changes hands in America, so
I am usually behind on ownership changes. I am usually not going
to investigate ownership issues on bulls that have less than 5 marked
outs. Don't be offended by it.
Why is this bull listed as belonging to me when I sold
In a nutshell, because I didn't know you sold him. If you sell
a bull to someone else who is going to haul him at the professional
level, then I haven't seen him show up in that person's herd yet.
That's the sort of thing I would very much like like to know, but
cannot guess since I don't have your phone line tapped. I'd particularly
like to know if you sold him to someone who is going to change his
name or brand in an attempt to cover up his past misdeeds.
If you sold him to the sale barn or the packing plant, then after
some time his status will change to inactive (18 months or so with
no recorded outs). If that is the case, he will stay listed as yours
forever, he will just show up as inactive or dead - because you
were the last known owner to haul him anywhere. If you bought a
retired bull for breeding, but he is still listed under his former
owner, feel free to let me know and I will correct it, because,
well... there is no other way for me to find out.
My bull was marked unfairly at X event. Why does it have
to go on his record?
There are many outs that are marked unfairly. If I learn that any
particular out meets my definition of unfair markings, then I scratch
the markings and the out shows as unmarked, which doesn't detract
from a bull's record. My idea of unfair markings include the following
Some rerides: If a bull is marked poorly on an
out that resulted in a RR because the bull fouled the rider, or
fell or lost a flank, I scratch the markings because those things
aren't really the bull's fault. No bull should have bad markings
on his record for those reasons, but judges do consistently give
them low marks for all these things, God knows why. If I know the
reride was due to foul, fall or flank, then I render the out unmarked
and it doesn't count toward his average in any way.
Obviously moronic judging: This has really only
happened once or twice. Once I remember a Judge marked Beutler's
744 High Tide about 12 points or something because (on investigation)
he bucked the guy off in half a second. The other judge marked 23.
I scratched it and reported the moronic judge to the proper authorities
who I assume took away his crayon and Big Chief tablet.
Why don't you have the results
for event X posted?
I receive the sheets for all PBR and PRCA events, and most CBR
events (I think). The PBR sheets usually come in about a week after
the event; the PRCA usually about 2 weeks or more after. CBR sheets
- occasionally. Sheets come to me after they have been audited,
and the auditing takes longer for some events than others.
I try to process events in order of their importance. High profile
events featuring more than one herd of bulls are on the top of the
priority list. Any event with the top bulls and/or the top riders
is also high priority. Small rodeos with nothing but duds or mediocre
bulls that we have already seen a lot of outs for - are at the bottom
of the list. Events that feature a lot of new bulls take much longer
to process. Events where there was evidentally a lot of brand/name
switching, or the sheets are unclear get put on the back burner.
Any event where the judges didn't mark bull scores on buckoffs usually
goes in the round file. Events that obviously have very flaky judging
- same deal.
I am usually asked this by contractors who are interested in seeing
their bulls stats, so, in a nutshell, there are several reasons
why your sheets may not get processed as quickly as others, most
likely one of these:
- You frequently change names/brands of your bulls.
- You use other people's bulls and list them incorrectly or as
your own, or change the names/brands to cover it up, forcing me
to play Dick Tracy to process the sheets into data.
- You buy bulls that are already listed on PBS, and then change
the names or brands.
- You seem to have an entire herd of new, never before seen bulls
at each event.
- The majority of your bulls at the event in question are weak,
already exposed as such, and the event in question presents no
- You don't turn in bull names.
- You employ people who choose to handwrite (illegibly) every
single thing on every single judge's sheet.
- You drew apathetic judges who didn't mark any of the outs.
- The sheets for the event in question are drawn up in some kind
of secret code that I have to send off to the local university
for translation into English.
- The event took place during a monsoon, and the sheets look like
a Salvador Dali painting.
- The event feature someone's "B Team" bulls. If it's
not worth bringing your better bulls to, it's not top priority.
- No rider I ever heard of before was entered.
All of the above make the sheets more time consuming to process.
Also, I assume if you are always changing bull names or brands,
that there can be only one reason for doing so: You don't want your
bull's stats revealed for whatever reason- which is fine by me.
To every contractor that asks me about this I say the same thing....
Little Yellow Jacket NEVER got turned in with a different name or
brand #. Not ever.
I don't check the various organization's schedules to see if I
got the sheets for everything or not, so if they don't send it,
it won't usually get processed unless someone asks me about it.
There are always going to be some events that don't make it into
this data at all. My goal is to try to process around 30,000 outs
per year, and that is a very healthy sample of what's going on at
the pro level.
Who the $%&$* are you to say _____ ?
We occasionally get hate mail based on some comment on the site.
My name is Slade Long. I'm not an official SOB (Swami of Bull Riding),
but because of fate, I run this site, and am responsible for most
of its content (If you feel that you could do a better job of it,
or represent the sport more fairly than I do - please contact me
immediately!). Any site visitor can add notes to bull profiles,
and those notes reflect the opinions of their authors. Forum posts
- same thing. Most of the articles/notes/comments on this site were
written by either myself or former PRCA bull riding director Bryan
McDonald. Bryan is no longer involved with bull riding, and has
not contributed to the site since early 2005, but if you wish to
cuss him out anyhow, I'm sure he would be more than happy to hear
from you. Just send email to bryan at probullstats.com and it will
be duly forwarded to him. Likewise, if you wish to cuss me out,
my email address and phone number is on the contacts
page. Be aware that I have already been chewed on by the Dalai
Lama, the Pope, and some regular SOBs (Swamis of Bull Riding), so
I am probably already familiar with many of the cuss words you know,
and have already seen them in all caps before.
Since we started this site in 1999 I have studied the judges sheets
from thousands of events. I don't have any agenda whatsoever. I
have always loved bull riding and love to see its successes, and
it hurts me to see its setbacks. I use the comment blocks on the
sheets to point out things which stand out to me - such as when
one judge marks a bull 20 and the other judge marks him 5. I
do not mean to offend anyone, but the rodeo biz seems to have its
share of thin-skinned people, so it's impossible to avoid. If you
are one of the offended people, you can turn your caps lock on and
cuss me all you want. I've stated this many times, and I will say
it again here: If you take exception to something that I or anyone
else has said on this site, I'll be more than happy to allow you
space to publish your views (expletives deleted) on our front page
- just say the word and it's done. It's been my experience that
no one ever takes me up on this, and the screaming, cussing mad
people usually prefer to erupt in private. That's ok too. No one
involved inthis sport is an oracle or prophet or saint or infallible.
It's run by people just like you and me.
More to come as needed!
Slade Long - probullstats.com 2006